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(8:46:16 AM) O. Manifestus: are there any mods who take the rules seriously or respect them whatsoever?
(8:46:29 AM) O. Manifestus: i know you don't, obviously. but are there any?
(8:47:05 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: You are really OCD about this
(8:47:13 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: like really, it is pretty scary
(8:47:31 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: it started out funny, then weird, then sad, but now I am worried about you
(8:47:37 AM) O. Manifestus: i appreciate it
(8:47:53 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: just let it go ok? I really don't think it is healthy
(8:48:27 AM) O. Manifestus: you should try being a TL user with no privileges or advantages and see what it's really like before you judge me.
(8:48:37 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: for perspective, when the 10 commandments were written, TL was a very different place. obviously the same conditions do not apply today, but if you follow those 10 commandments, you will never be banned. ever.
(8:48:54 AM) O. Manifestus: you sit up there in your tower abusing your abilities to belittle guys who can't answer back, saying how you're smarter than them, yet you would lose a fair fight to any of them
(8:49:13 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: ok, whatever
(8:49:14 AM) O. Manifestus: every mod action breaks at least three commandments
(8:49:39 AM) O. Manifestus: at least yours do
(8:49:45 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: like i said, i think you have an unhealthy fascination with the website and its rules,. i think your energy could be much more productive elsewhere
(8:50:09 AM) O. Manifestus: and i think it's pathetic that you say you are so intellectual superior to guys and then you do everything you can to make sure they can't have a real public discussion with you
(8:50:42 AM) O. Manifestus: if you have no intellectual integrity then you should stop boasting how superior you are in that arena
(8:50:49 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: that is fine, you are entitlies to your opinion. i think it is pathetic you make forums to talk to yourself and a degenerate pedophile
(8:51:03 AM) O. Manifestus: just admit what you are--a barbarian, swinging your sword around at unarmed people. that's your post on TL
(8:51:07 AM) O. Manifestus: just admit it
(8:51:13 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: we can agree to dislike the way we handle ourselves, I wont lose any sleep over it
(8:52:05 AM) O. Manifestus: if you disagree with me talking to chibi in my forum, you could explain why, or--stfu. what ever will you do? you sure won't back up your objection with reasons... that's beyond your vast "intellectual" capacities
(8:52:23 AM) O. Manifestus: your main response isn't open to you--you can't ban your way out of this banifesto
(8:52:32 AM) O. Manifestus: where's the close button!
(8:52:58 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: that is right, dont state your arguments and then taunt me for not replying to them haha
(8:53:10 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: sounds really rational
(8:53:21 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: seriously, find a new hobby
(8:53:31 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: this one got tiring for all involved in 2005
(8:53:37 AM) O. Manifestus: it's okay, you can fool yourself. i know you are very good at this.
(8:53:56 AM) O. Manifestus: show me one time that you argued with someone decently at all
(8:54:03 AM) O. Manifestus: without your mod abilities coming into play
(8:54:14 AM) O. Manifestus: or just show me you are able to have an argument in a non TL setting
(8:54:31 AM) O. Manifestus: you think you are so right about all these matters but you can't be bothered to explain your reasons in a setting where someone could answer them fairly
(8:54:55 AM) O. Manifestus: you just banned some guy, your reason was "i don't like him", and then you proceeded to insult him in the ban thread
(8:55:00 AM) O. Manifestus: what's so good about that?
(8:55:27 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: i dont have to read his posts anymore
(8:56:05 AM) O. Manifestus: you don't think that's a ridiculous way to moderate?
(8:56:17 AM) O. Manifestus: it sounds like you need an ignore feature, not an ability to ban
(8:56:44 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: well, until we get one, the ban feature will have to do
(8:56:46 AM) O. Manifestus: banning effects every member of the site not just yourself. it represents TL as a whole and it effects every member's ability to read that person
(8:57:41 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: yes, and i am sparing very member the stupifying effects of that guy's posting.
(8:57:59 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: i think i deserve an award
(8:58:16 AM) O. Manifestus: oh so now you say it is because his posts had "stupifying effects"
(8:58:17 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: anyway, watch much starcraft lately?
(8:58:28 AM) O. Manifestus: i don't really watch the pro gaming scene
(8:58:55 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: that is too bad, because in case you missd it, TL is about progaming, not about moderation
(8:59:09 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: maybe you should keep that in mind, as should those people who get banned
(8:59:19 AM) O. Manifestus: TL has a general forum for a reason, and before you guys ruined it, it was one of the best places to be on the internet
(8:59:55 AM) O. Manifestus: if you have no interest in general discussion maybe you shouldn't read it or moderate it and leave that for someone who gives a fuck about it.
(9:00:00 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: well, i would trade the general forum 10x over for the rest of the site. i think it is a cesspool, and has never been the focus of the site. it is a toenail.
(9:00:34 AM) O. Manifestus: to you, maybe. so like i said, why not leave it alone then. you guys ruin more shit there and yet it has only gotten worse. you must be doing something wrong
(9:01:44 AM) O. Manifestus: there are members who actually come to TL for the general forum. maybe they're a minority but you could let them, people who actually care, police "the cesspool" so you can focus on your boring "pro gaming coverage"
(9:02:01 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: because when it is left alone, it becomes like yuotube. honestly, you have no idea. you think that moderation has ruined general but you are so wrong. moderation has allowed general to remain alive.
(9:02:14 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: you are too dense to realize there are other factors involved
(9:02:36 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: like... i dunno... a 4x increase in members and a 250% increase in posts, and a 300% increase in topics
(9:02:43 AM) O. Manifestus: other factors that are "too difficult" for you to mention... no no wait, you're just "too busy" to explain
(9:02:51 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: TL isnt a little club of people anymore, it has opened itself to the vastness of the web
(9:03:07 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: and thus, the decay of popularity has affected it more than anything
(9:03:12 AM) O. Manifestus: member increase because you ban so many people? or required people to make accounts to do various things?
(9:03:24 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: but again, you dont care about that. you think banning people is to blame lol
(9:03:30 AM) O. Manifestus: increase in posts because you guys type LOL to eachother in starcraft threads 10x more?
(9:03:36 AM) O. Manifestus: those are both deceptive numbers
(9:03:46 AM) O. Manifestus: increase in topics probably includes blogs too
(9:03:53 AM) O. Manifestus: so strike three and we haven't even begun
(9:03:56 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: no they arent, that is your uninformed assumption
(9:04:07 AM) O. Manifestus: no it's your inability to articulate yourself
(9:04:15 AM) O. Manifestus: topics would include blogs unless otherwise stated
(9:04:24 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: whatever, if you are jsut goping to "imagine" facts to back up your argument, you are guilty of what you charge me with
(9:04:36 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: so dont do it or stop typing
(9:04:40 AM) O. Manifestus: i can only TRY to figure out what your vague claims mean and don't mean
(9:04:43 AM) O. Manifestus: that's not the same as what you do
(9:04:57 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: you arent trying
(9:05:24 AM) O. Manifestus: you said that TL got bigger, and general would be way worse were it not for the moderators doing gay things like you do
(9:05:36 AM) O. Manifestus: what this has to do with a real argument, i dont really fucking know
(9:05:45 AM) O. Manifestus: obviously NO MODERATION ACTIONS at all, would suck
(9:05:56 AM) O. Manifestus: that's not the dilem\ma we are evaluating though is it?
(9:06:08 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: because you think moderation has destroyed general, yet you fail to recognize any other factors
(9:06:27 AM) O. Manifestus: what you mean to do is to say that we must accept self-serving, hasty, selfish, arrogant mod actions, or none at all
(9:06:27 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: and i am telling you that there are other, FAR MORE IMPORANT factors involved
(9:06:38 AM) O. Manifestus: far more important factors t han the ones you told me?
(9:06:50 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: and then you dismiss these factors by making up numbers about blogs and posts
(9:06:52 AM) O. Manifestus: is this kind of like when Bush says "if you knew what i knew, you'd know i was right"?
(9:07:12 AM) O. Manifestus: or are you referring to something you already said?
(9:07:14 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: yes, you would
(9:07:27 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: you are arguing with intuition, not experience or facts
(9:07:37 AM) O. Manifestus: that's because you guys keep all your facts secret
(9:07:48 AM) O. Manifestus: you WANT it to appear, to the public, that you are wrong
(9:08:02 AM) O. Manifestus: and you want us to just trust you that actually, you aren't the douchebags you make yourself look to be.
(9:08:07 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: no, that is because you pick and choose what to read. i hae posted those numbers several times.
(9:08:08 AM) O. Manifestus: and you can't explain why it must be this way
(9:08:19 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: besides, the information is free to anyone who pays attention
(9:08:36 AM) O. Manifestus: you aren't making much sense sir
(9:08:46 AM) O. Manifestus: you are now saying that said numbers explain everything
(9:09:05 AM) O. Manifestus: "a 4x increase in members and a 250% increase in posts, and a 300% increase in topics"
(9:09:09 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: im not making sense? i have no idea what you are talking about now. you simlpy name call and rail against this perception of a forum 4 years ago.
(9:09:24 AM) O. Manifestus: 4 years ago?
(9:09:35 AM) O. Manifestus: you banned some guy "because i don't want to read his posts" TODAY
(9:09:52 AM) O. Manifestus: you mocked him in the ban thread like you were better than him, you tried to psychoanalyze him to rationalize your feelings
(9:09:57 AM) O. Manifestus: your given reason was "because i don't like him"
(9:10:07 AM) O. Manifestus: that's not 4 years ago mod behavior, it's YOU, TODAY
(9:10:26 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: and that action has no bearing on the forum as a whole
(9:10:29 AM) O. Manifestus: tellme how "a 4x increase in members and a 250% increase in posts, and a 300% increase in topics" means your mod behavior is appropriate
(9:11:00 AM) O. Manifestus: it does because he contributed long, thought out posts. lively disagreements. something to actually think about and argue about in the TL forum. he answered criticisms and made them
(9:11:22 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: you are mixing in two different strains of thought. the mod actions havent changed. mod actions like that happened in the golden days of the general forum. the increase in numbers explains the degeneration of the forum.
(9:11:25 AM) O. Manifestus: these are the things required for useful discussions in general. very few people do these things.. and you guys chop them down because it isn't as fun to you as some shitty posts
(9:11:58 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: i have no idea why you have this image of moderation back then. go read mensrea posts from your time. it was the same.
(9:12:18 AM) O. Manifestus: you can't possibly say it was the same
(9:12:25 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: sure i can
(9:12:27 AM) O. Manifestus: there was no ban like that
(9:12:36 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: go look at rekrul when he had his ban hammer
(9:12:44 AM) O. Manifestus: rekrul NEVER made bans as bad as this one
(9:12:47 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: haha, no? you are really selective with your memory
(9:12:48 AM) O. Manifestus: he ACTED like he did
(9:12:51 AM) O. Manifestus: but it was a joke to him
(9:12:54 AM) O. Manifestus: he always had good reasons
(9:12:57 AM) O. Manifestus: he made GOOD bans
(9:13:09 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: you are out of your mind if you believe that. banned people for spelling
(9:13:11 AM) O. Manifestus: you guys don't understand rekrul's bans. you are doing bad ones because you think that's what rekrul did
(9:13:21 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: mensrea banned people for not liking the same football team
(9:13:37 AM) O. Manifestus: i wasn't around when mensrea did that
(9:13:38 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: thats right stimy, rekrul is a hidden genius too complex for me to understand lol
(9:13:44 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: unrela
(9:14:17 AM) O. Manifestus: just look at how evasive you have to be to get around the embarassing nature of your ban behaviors
(9:14:34 AM) O. Manifestus: who cares if some other bans were as embarrassing, that doesn't change what you did.
(9:15:12 AM) O. Manifestus: maybe TL was NEVER good, that doesn't have any effect on what good or bad is
(9:15:20 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: your whole argument is predicated on the fact that moderation has changed, and then i point out it hasnt changed, then you say it doesnt matter
(9:15:40 AM) O. Manifestus: it's bad to destroy your only supply of necessary ingredients for good conversation, esp. for immature self-serving motivations
(9:15:54 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: i suggest you read my analogy in the "how to use TL" thread
(9:16:46 AM) O. Manifestus: it's too hard to prove TL has or hasn't changed. i think general forum used to be better at some point. but we can't really prove that. it's too much work. what we can do is admit whether mod action X is good or bad. whether it's necessary to ban in a specific case, to close in a specific case. whether Y is a good reason or not
(9:16:53 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: and until you realize TL exists for proBW first, and general dead last, you will always be unhappy. i dont give a shit if you think it is boring, others dont. it is your fault for reading a forum created for something you dont like. i cant imagine anything more useless
(9:16:55 AM) O. Manifestus: you think i haven't read it? honestly?
(9:17:13 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: i know you have, but i also think you choose to ignore it
(9:17:45 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: anyone with any shred of social skill knows you dont jump into a new, ESTABLISHED, social setting and tell a nigger joke.
(9:17:48 AM) O. Manifestus: you are combining two tasks for no reason. TL could have people who care about general, CARING FOR general. they don't because THEY MIX the two. they think they have to have pro BW fags pissing all over everything in their posession, or they can't be pro bw fags whatsoever
(9:18:02 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: unfortunately people don't realize some parts of the internet work the same way
(9:18:22 AM) O. Manifestus: you guys make it impossible for people who disagree with you to speak up
(9:18:30 AM) O. Manifestus: and then you are convinced that no one disagrees with you
(9:18:31 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: guess what, TL isnt both. sorry, isnt that why you made your own forum? so you could have a general without BW?
(9:18:48 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: Take away general, TL survives. Take away BW, TL dies. the end.
(9:19:17 AM) O. Manifestus: again, you dont have to take away anything, to make general better. you only need to have people who DON'T CARE about general, to NOT MODERATE IT
(9:19:32 AM) O. Manifestus: let people who care about posting and reading general, to be the ones to moderate it. it's fucking simple
(9:19:55 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: no, because when general isn't moderated, it gets wose. then it bleeds out into the rest of the forum.
(9:19:59 AM) O. Manifestus: that doesn't cost the bw side anything. there's no explanation for why TL must have its general-hating, pro bw content generators spending time moderating general
(9:20:07 AM) O. Manifestus: i DIDNT SAY TO LEAVE IT UNMODERATED
(9:20:44 AM) O. Manifestus: I SAID THAT MODERATORS SHOULD BE PEOPLE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN WHAT THEY'RE MODERATING
(9:21:01 AM) O. Manifestus: YOU WOULDN'T LET SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T CARE ABOUT BW MODERATE MOST OF TL
(9:21:21 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: all caps is part of your discussion strategy?
(9:21:32 AM) O. Manifestus: WHEN YOU ARE GETTING REALLY DENSE IT IS
(9:21:43 AM) O. Manifestus: WHEN I AM REPEATING MYSELF FOR THE 5TH TIME OR MORE
(9:21:45 AM) O. Manifestus: I SWITCH TO CAPS
(9:21:49 AM) O. Manifestus: WHAT DO YOU THINK DENSE MAN?
(9:23:24 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: I think you are sick. I think that I see general as having a purpose that is different than yours. I think TL is a better place now than it ever was. I think you hold an unhealthy fascination for moderation on a forum whose topic you aren't interested in.
(9:23:43 AM) O. Manifestus: i like posting on TL
(9:24:02 AM) O. Manifestus: i'm kept out without a good reason, without any chance to appeal or defend myself or convince anyone that this is mistaken
(9:24:19 AM) O. Manifestus: i have arguments, but no one to hear them. i have no arguments against me that i can answer
(9:24:38 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: Yes, and that is our perogative isn't it? Why do you deserve trial? 98% of people on TL never enven are warned, let alone banned. What is wrong with you?
(9:24:50 AM) O. Manifestus: i want to be on TL and post. i want TL to be more enjoyable than it has been. if that's unhealthy, fine. what does that even say?
(9:25:03 AM) O. Manifestus: i wasn't warned either before i was banned
(9:25:11 AM) O. Manifestus: so i fall into the 98%
(9:25:34 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: haha
(9:25:50 AM) O. Manifestus: besides, you don't really have credibility in this respect, since mod actions and deliberations are so secret
(9:25:55 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: and you call me dense. yes stimy, you have NO IDEA why you were banned. you are a lamb in the woods.
(9:26:10 AM) O. Manifestus: i am pretty sure you have no idea what you're talking about right now
(9:26:38 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: ok im about done. is there anything else?
(9:26:44 AM) O. Manifestus: i read every discussion that went on leading up to my first and second bans.
(9:26:56 AM) O. Manifestus: you probably don't even remember what was said there, but i can tell you that a lot of it was BS
(9:27:13 AM) O. Manifestus: i will post this on my forum and a pedophile will read it.
(9:27:19 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: go for it
(9:27:26 AM) O. Manifestus: you don't even know which ban you are talking about
(9:27:30 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: you two deserve each other
(9:27:44 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: im sure the moderation at your forum is fucknig AWESOME
(9:27:44 AM) O. Manifestus: and if i don't know what the reason was for my ban, that's because NO ONE ever knows ANY reason for ANY ban, INCLUDING the people doing the banning
(9:28:06 AM) O. Manifestus: it's easy to convince yourself you're right, mani, when you are silencing everyone who disagrees.
(9:28:16 AM) O. Manifestus: look over this log.
(9:28:26 AM) O. Manifestus: you used many bad argument techniques to keep yourself convinced you were right.
(9:28:33 AM) O. Manifestus: ask yourself why you had to do that.
(9:29:00 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: alright, ill be sure to do that. maybe, stimy, just maybe, it was because "I just don't like you."
(9:29:11 AM) O. Manifestus: dig deep, and you will hit the bottom, you shallow, shallow bullyfesto.
(9:29:25 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: lol
(9:30:14 AM) O. Manifestus: when you have any responses to any of the arguments on my forum, make suure to post.
(9:30:22 AM) O. Manifestus: until then, they are unanswered because they are so right.
(9:30:57 AM) Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: what is your forum url, so i can read?
(9:31:11 AM) O. Manifestus: it's easy to find.
number of users shouldnt affect the consistancy and standards of moderation. you might aswell have a curfew if thats the case. maybe certain users should only post during a predetermined window of hours, that would keep everything at a reasonable level. if you segregated them by country/time zone then not only would you be helping users who are supposed to be asleep/at work instead of on TL, but it'd also help to keep users out of heated and fast-paced arguements, and help prevent racial/etc battles, and let the moderators swoop in and edit out flames before victims have the chance to respond
Trevor - Manifesto7, renaissance: Yes, and that is our perogative isn't it? Why do you deserve trial? 98% of people on TL never even are warned, let alone banned.
well it's clear that the people in charge don't give a rats ass about general forum, and those who do (if this is the right term, and no it probably isnt ) are extremely misguided in some respects and shouldn't be mods in the first place (plexa to name one)
probably the only way to actually influence them is to infiltrate them
I was reading this again and I realized, maybe Mani is saying my original ban (I made a topic called Fuck Beyonder where I said he was holding down a nigga or something) was because literally I told a "nigger joke" in a new setting I was new to? If this is what he's saying this just shows how out of touch he is. Using the hip-hop term "nigga" is not in any stretch of any part of the term, a "nigger joke" and I wasn't jumping into a social setting I knew nothing about, I WAS the status quo. If anything, BEYONDER was jumping out from invisibility to lynch me for doing something clearly acceptable.
hmm, i had my "final character deletion ban" for quoting cartman (south park) saying something racist (however an obvious joke/quoted reference), on the public channel. of course, their rationalisation was that i was a constant torment and that was the final straw. i guess it's like america, where everyone carries a gun - you only need to get angry and snap one single time before you've shot someone dead.
in response to this perhaps a good idea would be to restrict the use of mod powers with a cooldown period. say, a mod has the power to instantly temp-ban someone for 48 hours. however, the option to EXTEND this ban (to say, 1 week) would only become available to the mod after 24 hours. this gives the mod a chance to "cool down", and reflect on his decision.
i suppose this is just an uncessary solution to a problem that could simply be solved by having intelligent and open-eared/open-minded mods. then again: not everyone is perfect and perhaps it is an intelligent system to safe-guard the users from any potentially erratic mod behaviour
(note - sorry, i emailed this instead of forum posting it for some reason)
Mods' ability to act unilaterally should be for emergencies only, like if the whole site is being flooded with spam or something. A thread having some apparently offensive sentiment does not demand immediate action. And obviously someone who is offended or sensitive should be the last person to get to decide what an effective moderation response should be. When you let biased people decide these things they make bad decisions, which have bad consequences for the site.
While it is apparently hard for TL to see this, a ban being excessive actually subtracts quality from the site. I suppose the main disagreement now is that TL no longer believes that quality of their forums is vital to the site or the community. Apparently they think producing quality content is more central--much like gosugamers and CNN.com and the like.
I know they are just hoping to be a "big mainstream SC2 site", which is pretty sad IMO.
Besides, they don't have to pursue this new direction at the cost of the forums, they need only make marginally effective management decisions to have it both ways. Have people who care about the forums and understand what makes them good--do the moderating. Take moderation abilities away from those who have little to no respect for the importance and value of the forums. They let people who don't even want to forum on their site do the moderating--a serious mistake.
"haha *Mani walks into classroom*
Student: Mani you don't look good
Mani: SHUT UP! OR I'll BAN U! You are even lucky you get a response back before I ban you!
Student: *shivers and goes to a corner*"
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