This post was updated on .
if i can i'll just paste a few things i said the other day relating to a (text based) MMO game i used to play more than i ever browsed TL.
it had similar problems to TL, with similar "mods" and userbase, although the users were generally more middleaged or "mature" than your "normal" computer game crowd.
your "character(s)" in the game (which they could gag, suspend, DELETE) were more valuable to you than a TL username because you had spent the last 600++++ hours, over the course of several weeks, or years, levelling him/them up etc.
the "mods" in the game consisted of liaisons(mods/helpers)/creators(mods/coders) . they were a very select few, and treated their "code" and plans EXTREMELY secretively. i think this method of organisation, although it can make sense, should be under review
(red script is from me, black from a friend)
I definitely see your point. While it's more metaphorical on TL, your account does mean something (however complicated it is to explain), especially because of how they moderate.
Honestly it sounds like DW has worse mods than TL. TL isn't that incompetent and whimsical. However, I think is a parallel between the systemic causes of these problematic tendencies: (1) the kind of thinking that goes behind selecting mods; (2) the secret culture and reasoning of the mods; (3) the way any one mod's preference will lead to a relatively severe action against you, meaning the more mods that are around the higher the chance of anyone getting smited for almost anything (despite what they say).
All three of these points are pretty major and I could expand on them a lot. Before my first ban ever on TL I made all three of these points consistently. I suggested that TL mods make their actions more public and let people respond freely. Their response was that this would make moderating too hard. Likewise I asked that they give a little reason so others can learn from others' mistakes--again this was too much work. You know what I mean.
I also whined about the selection of mods. It seemed to me like a lot of the mods didn't even (in DW terms) "know the game" or "play the game" that they were moderating. This is an especially big problem. They have decent post counts but it seems the only place they read or post is MiR, resulting to huge distortions. IMO someone banning me should be someone who is capable and interested in participating in just the sort of conversation we are having. There are plenty of people who like to read and post in General, so why can't one of them be the moderator instead of someone who does it for god knows why and just gets pissed when they read something they find boring so they close it or ban people they think are stupid and can't be bothered to give a reason. This is just an embarrassing attitude they represent, and are proud of. They take people who are good at Starcraft, and let them moderate General. People who code, or are good at writing reports, or are funny, or are their friends, and let them try their hand at moderating.
And because moderating has such a separate culture in a secret forum (where it seems they post there and read there and participate less in the real community as a result), they change--becoming a mod ruins many good posters or good contributors because of this.
I won't even elaborate further right now. You get the idea. The main problem though is that problems like these can never be discussed seriously. The mods are too sensitive and defensive. They won't allow topics discussing these things to ever continue and if anyone says what they really think they run the risk of a ban--it's a huge double standard. Insults fly all day, but some simple honest opinions that aren't positive about something as critically important as the moderation, will get you shut down.
oh, for some reason i thought i'd pasted everything i wanted to, but hadn't:
me: when i became a cre i was intensely interested in it for several months, then i got bored. im sure this happens with most of them. except i had something to go back to/something else to do (PKing) so i moved on and made room for someone else
me: if "being a cre" wasn't so completely elitist , and many many people could become a cre for a short period only to revert again when they get bored, it might be a more powerful system
friend: Same thing happened to me, I got completely bored after 5 or 6 months
me: a) people who join up just to be a cre won't last long b) people who join up legitimately can feel free to leave whenever they want . maybe they can keep their cre channel, and they can definately return after say 6 months leave.
me: it's like the cres/crealts are so elitist that a) joining them becomes a huge deal so people join for the wrong reasons ( they just feel like being a "god" )
me: and b) once you get in you just don't wanna leave, since it was so hard to get in and you have something so "special" now. and you're stuck with useless cres
This post was updated on .
one of the major "issues" is how people simply react to intelligent/interesting posters (the threads regarding my last TL alt are the recent example)
one of my friends said... that i appear to be very "loud" in my expressions and that makes her feel like a) im not listening to her and b) im just trying to be controlling and dont care what she has to say
this was just a misunderstanding (a dire one at that) , and she concluded it by basically saying that i dont "need" to express myself "loudly" around her because she's intelligent and can understand me without that "loudness" (something like that anyway).
still, rational is rational. but in her case, it did give her some sort of impression of arrogance on my behalf which lead her to be less responsive. in her case, she reacted at certain times by simply "shutting down" - she thought i wasn't listening and she couldn't get a word in (language barrier here too) so she would just "give up" on me.
the point of this is simply (and obviously) that we should learn to coerce people better**, problem with that is an inherant enjoyment in provoking various reactions whilst still knowing we're right.
so basically, if you REALLY REALLY care about TL, you're just gonna have to change your tone of voice and learn to coerce* them with logic rather than batter them over the head with it and expect them to appreciate it (and if someone isn't appreciating you then they are against you or have simply left the building)
OTHERWISE it's all really just fun and games, and in my opinion you shouldn't play the same game for too long (this applies to whining about mods, but not of course to participating in individual threads)
*note it isn't necessarily coercing, just bringing yourself down to their level, or in the case of my friend, bringing yourself up a level.
**come to think of this, i was doing this on DW too. Some people you'd be real nice to because they were lovely people and could help you out :-) you do need a companion/confident to help you get thru these tough times tho, or maybe it was satisfaction enough to know you were blatently fooling so many people in so many ways.
interestingly my friend specifically (abruptly?) asked me if i liked the TWO bands that you said you liked and that i should sample about a year ago. i wonder why this is, maybe she tracked you down somehow (possible but difficult)
(btw been listening to Dummy on repeat for a while, reminds me a tad of Gorrillaz and Bjork but im definately familiar with this type of music, i think i have in the past but i again recommend you download the torrent albums Dream Upon Waking I and II. some tracks you would enjoy, others not so much. i must ask: do you listen to the lyrics in this album? because i don't/haven't yet (i never listen to lyrics...))
A Dream Upon Waking (disc 1)
1. Frou Frou - Must Be Dreaming
2. Air - Run
3. Cocteau Twins - I Wear Your Ring
4. Boards of Canada - Energy Warning
5. Folk Implosion - Merry-Go-Down
6. Fridge - Five Combs
7. Chapterhouse - Mesmerise
8. Nick Drake - Place to Be
9. Kilowatts - Close the Door
10. Tori Amos - A Sorta Fairytale (radio edit)
11. Goldfrapp - Hairy Trees
12. Múm - Sleep/Swim
13. Xploding PlastiX - Dizzy Blonde
14. The Magnetic Fields - The Dreaming Moon
15. Lali Puna - Bi-Pet
16. Boards of Canada - I Saw Drones
17. Blonde Redhead - For the Damaged
18. Slowdive - When the Sun Hits
19. Tori Amos - Winter
A Dream Upon Waking (disc 2)
1. Essell - Daydream
2. Dido - Sand in my Shoes
3. Lush - Lovelife
4. The Cure - Lullaby
5. Dntel - Why I'm So Unhappy
6. Múm - The Ballad of the Broken Birdie Records
7. Boards of Canada - In the Annexe
8. Aphex Twin - Meltphace 6
9. Pinback - Anti-Hu
10. The Go Find - Over the Edge
11. Four Tet - Everything is Alright
12. The Notwist - Pick up the Phone
13. Radiohead - Worry Wort
14. Björk - Bachelorette
15. Mono - Life in Mono
16. The Smashing Pumpkins - Try, Try, Try
17. Frou Frou - Let Go
/disc 1/01 Purify.mp3 6.6 Mb
/disc 1/02 In Space.mp3 3.9 Mb
/disc 1/03 Tale From Black.mp3 7.8 Mb
/disc 1/04 I.D..mp3 7.6 Mb
/disc 1/05 Enigmatic Enconter.mp3 5.4 Mb
/disc 1/06 Avril 14th.mp3 2.4 Mb
/disc 1/07 A Letter From Home.mp3 9.6 Mb
/disc 1/08 Recycled Air.mp3 6.2 Mb
/disc 1/09 Going Incognito.mp3 4.4 Mb
/disc 1/10 Seville.mp3 4.7 Mb
/disc 1/11 Story of Isaac.mp3 4.8 Mb
/disc 1/12 Gone.mp3 8.4 Mb
/disc 1/13 Nein.mp3 6.7 Mb
/disc 1/14 Dont Think.mp3 3.6 Mb
/disc 1/15 Several.mp3 9.2 Mb
/disc 1/16 Sky Is Broken.mp3 4.9 Mb
/disc 1/17 Serenade.mp3 4.1 Mb
/disc 2/01 Here To Stay.mp3 5.8 Mb
/disc 2/02 Green Grass of Tunnel.mp3 4.4 Mb
/disc 2/03 Warm Tears.mp3 4.8 Mb
/disc 2/04 How A Hot Air Balloon Works.mp3 6.3 Mb
/disc 2/05 Golden.mp3 5.2 Mb
/disc 2/06 Burning Up.mp3 8.7 Mb
/disc 2/07 The Negatives.mp3 5.9 Mb
/disc 2/08 Petrified.mp3 7.1 Mb
/disc 2/09 Spirit Fingers.mp3 4.6 Mb
/disc 2/10 No Signs Of Pain.mp3 5.8 Mb
/disc 2/11 Odyssey.mp3 4.3 Mb
/disc 2/12 1000 Miles From Everywhere.mp3 8.2 Mb
/disc 2/13 Perseid.mp3 4.3 Mb
/disc 2/14 What You Gave Away.mp3 3.8 Mb
/disc 2/15 Eye.mp3 5.6 Mb
/disc 2/16 Instant Gods Out of the Box.mp3 5.3 Mb
/disc 2/17 Who Knows.mp3 3.2 Mb
/disc 2/18 Samskeyti.mp3 15.0 Mb
Air - Run
Cocteau Twins - Liz Fraser -I wear your ring
Boards of Canada - Energy Warning
Chapterhouse - Mesmerise
Nick Drake - Place to be
Goldfrapp - Hairy Trees
Xploding Plastix - Dizzy Blonde
just a few i could youtube quickly....no particular choices/order
if you're really interested in the more interesting electronic music then i can no more strongly recommend you download Winamp (classic view when installing) , click on the Shoutcast tab (switch to Classic view mode once there) and type in "ambient" or "chillout" (the d i g i t a l l y i m p o r t e d channels are always decent)
"the point of this is simply (and obviously) that we should learn to coerce people better**, problem with that is an inherant enjoyment in provoking various reactions whilst still knowing we're right."
I think this is exactly the problem. I know we've both said as much many times. We somehow get tempted by the chance to be so clearly right in the face of people who so clearly aren't getting a damn thing--somehow we think, there must be people watching who will get this, and so they will see that we are so great and our adversaries are such failures. We are proud of the style with which we destroy our adversaries, unfortunately on the internet everyone can judge a conversation however they want and the only arbiters of any outcome are the horrible moderatores.
Your second point that you posted is interesting--the idea of "term limits" for moderators. Because it is so hard for them to gain the status, they keep it even when they are no longer interested. You say people are generally super interested for a couple of months and then their interest wanes but they stay on because it was so hard to achieve etc. etc. There are probably even more wrong reasons for mods to stay on (with TL): they are a tightly knit clique with a secret forum; who would want to lose access to that? Honestly if we sat and looked at every angle we'd find that there are many, many wrong reasons for people to want to moderate and remain a moderator on TL, that it is almost impossible to have a moderator moderating for the right reasons. While my other critiques are important too, I think this one is pretty major. The motivations of the moderators haven't been engineered well at all--the incentives set up work against legitimate moderation motives.
As for music, I've downloaded those two mix albums before (you recommended them to me). They were okay but the best songs on them I already had the original albums of (mostly).
interesting thing to note is that people extend respect from one subject to another. if someone is respected for having great valid explaination of starcraft then they are automatically expected and therefore believed to have great valid explaination of eg canadian polotix. you should recognise that the cleverest nerds still have no idea how to impress a women, and extend this recognisation to all your heroes.
obvin the case of TL, if someone is a great contributer in one aspect (they provide great game analysis or map ideas), they automatically make a great poster (or god forbid a moderater) in other aspect.
obv this has some grounding but then again you could just as easily say a person who scores 90% in an IQ test is 90% accurate in their analysis of cambodian polotix.
btw how do u spell polotix........
yeah this is especially the case on TL. i think it's a huge problem because then you've got people who AREN'T NECESSARILY TRYING TO DO "GOOD MODDING", with the power to mod. if you put a smart guy in a situation where he gets a win or a loss based on the rules of the game, then he's gonna figure that shit out. but if you give him a gun is he gonna figure out how to be a policeman? or is he just gonna be a nigga with a fuckin gun?
now there are some pressures to mods, but they don't seem to exactly amount to guidelines or training, and they seem to have little or no oversight or peer review, and criticism of them seems to be a bannable offense. it's not allowed that we discuss the merits of rekrul's banning tastes. so if you ask me, the problem isn't that the mods aren't talented people, it's that their talents aren't being pressured into a game where they must play it well. the pressures don't create results. if you draw four lines and have two people draw X's and O's, that's still not tic tac toe. and likewise when you guys who are viewing threads and making posts, viewing privledged info, banning and temp banning, closing topics, maybe talking about this shit on the MiR forum, that alone doesn't make the talent do anything "well" regarding modding--maybe a LITTLE via social pressure but also the social pressures that seem to be coming from MiR seem to be SHIT, as they have consistently come to wrong conclusions and convinced eachother that lies were true, in the only cases where i have some knowledge as to their needlessley, cowardly secret deliberations.
let me in there and it'll be like mr smith goes to washington.
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