your talents are required

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your talents are required

perisie xx
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Re: your talents are required

STIMEY D OKGM FISH
Administrator
There are a number of points that could be made on this issue.

#1 arguably (only arguably) it's banning that has to do with actions outside TL.  similar to banning for PM's or chats.  we can argue that you should only be banned permanently if it is very likely your posts need to be prevented in the future.  this isn't a moral argument or an interpretation of any rules, just practical common sense assuming the goals of moderation are to improve the site via preventing bad posts.  HOWEVER we can interpret the guy's posting of his desktop AS a bad post, so like I said, this isn't a 100% slam dunk argument.  however, it's unlikely that his post in any way makes him out to be someone you must permanently prevent from posting in the future.  warn him to not make insensitive racist posts, punish him even, and then he can probably come back and contribute--not because of fairness or anything like that but purely from the perspective of improving the site--TL should not go around destroying every potential contributor, we should get the most out of them as it is clear we don't have too many or w/e

#2 i would argue that controversial opinions may be good for the site--it may be good that, if TL has racist users, they get their beliefs exposed to the light of day.  this may be good for "reminding people of how horrible the holocaust was", more so than instantly destroying any potential controversy.  so even if the guy is a racist or at least insensitive, the best thing for society may be to let him post and let him have some discussions on this issue.  furthermore I think the discussions, as I said, would be good for the site.  without people who disagree on something they care about we have nothing to talk about.  it seems to me like this is another instance, not of attempting to improve the site, but of attempting to make all controversy and serious discussion impossible.

#3 while TL may claim that they don't care about fairness, some illusion of fairness is good for the site and we can debate how much apparent fairness adds value to the site.  it may very well be beneficial for the site to give banned users a chance to explain themselves, show that they've learned, have a discussion about the merits of their position and have a chance to come to an agreement.  imo too much is being assumed here about the guy's desktop.  he could be a holocaust researcher or a wolf3d game designer.  he could be a ww2 history nut.  he could be a survivor from the halocaust.  if he's not an immediate threat to the site you shouldn't need to ban him immediately.

All of the above points take the perspective of what is best for TL.  They aren't moral arguments, or interpretations of any alleged rules.  TL may be immaturely shooting itself in the foot with its current attitude on bans, namely that a single mod on their own whim can just, in an unregulated and careless way, shit on any user of their site, with little oversight or way for the banned to (1) know why they were banned or (2) that they were banned; also others are unlikely to really know why specifically the user was banned i.e. how to avoid being banned for similar reasons in the future.  It's also probably bad practice to assume you are right and they are wrong in order to utterly silence the person you are disagreeing with, because sometimes, just sometimes, you won't be completely right, and you're making it impossible to find this out, via abuse of power.  It's a bad practice for any use of power whether in a meeting, a government, a web site, a business, a club, etc.
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Re: your talents are required

STIMEY D OKGM FISH
Administrator
On a separate note, I really feel like TL should be more responsible.  When they temp ban someone for 30 days it really should be, roughly speaking, something at least near the best thing to do--for the site.  When you temp ban someone for 30 days you're saying what exactly?  As opposed to 14 or 7?  I just don't think they've thought this through.  They pick a number based on how pissed off they are, and it's really luck of the draw.  It makes them look less credible to anyone bothering to pay attention.

Combine this with their lack of serious explanations behind bans and temp bans, and it just looks fucking ridiculous.  I understand a 1 day through a 5 day temp ban, maybe 10.  Any more than that and it's just fucking redundant.  You're sitting someone out for a quarter of a fucking season on a whim.

They just don't respect anyone but themselves and their friends.  It's a horrible way to run a site.  Mods are just human beings, too.  They make mistakes.  But on TL when they do, they hide their mistakes, and their mistakes only hurt the site indirectly--by running good and potentially good people out of the site.  By making the site look poor to them.

I know a guy who was banned from TL, and not recently, but he made mostly good posts.  He makes one joke that one mod doesn't like, he doesn't even know what happened, except suddenly he can no longer post.  Next time he logs in, it's disney land.   How the fuck is he supposed to know that he's only temp banned and to look in the banned users thread for the explanation (btw there wasn't an explanation only insults)?  Long story short, the site pisses all over random people who might actually be quite good.  They take this "no one gets banned unless they super deserve it" attitude and how the fuck can that possibly be true?  It's just arrogance.

And again, like I always say, I'm not saying they need to be nicer or fairer.  Just, they are making themselves look like immature X17 douchebags the way they run the site.  They can't ever admit being wrong, or even let other people know their reasons or their reasonings.  It's really pathetic.  They have people who don't even care enough to post in General deciding which topics and people are worthless, and they can't be bothered to give fucking reasons but they will throw insults down from their ivory fucking tower, probably for fun.  And the people who run TL are naive or stupid enough to believe that this is good moderation, that it's not destroying what could be a great part of their site--one of the main parts that gave them a community and a base in the first fucking place you fucking assholes.
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Re: your talents are required

STIMEY D OKGM FISH
Administrator
Seriouslyl!  I know there are good mods on TL now, but there are still bad ones, doing bad things, and for the regular user it's really not easy to see or care that there are good ones too.  Because all it takes is one bad mod doing something bad ONCE and the site risks losing that user forever.  It happens all the time.  It drains from TL's discussion forums all the life out of it.  And for what?  Because TL thinks it's best contributors, best SC players, and best friends also deserve to limit the site's discussions to their personal whims and fuck with their users however they see fit.

They will fire back "show me one bad ban."  All I can say is, make it easier for us to see what mods do, and why.  The ban reason topic is EMBARASSING.  Every mod action is registered on TL and most reasonings, if there are any, are inside SECRET CLIQUE FORUMS where people LIE and put out BAD ARGUMENTS where NO ONE CAN SEE THEM TO REFUTE THEM.  Until they give people a chance to really see what they are doing (every ban, close, etc.) and their full reason AND feel safe enough to respond to it FREELY, they are simply abusing power to feel right when they could be wrong and they can't be bothered to risk finding out--an utterly embarrassing practice.

So yes I know TL has good mods.  Sad thing is, they don't trump the bad ones, even if the bad ones are the minority.  Even if the bad ones are good most of the time.  One turd in the punch bowl ruins the whole punch you guys.

TL, if you really think you have good mods, GET RID OF THE BAD ONES.  Too lazy?  GIVE THE GOOD MODS THE POWER OVER ALL THE MODS, SO THEY CAN REVIEW AND UNDO MOD ACTIONS AND DEMOTE BAD MODS.  Right now, EVEN IF there is a good mod, EVEN IF they see a bad mod action, most likely they will do nothing because they are a newer mod and know it is just impossible for them to bring up disagreements with mod actions.  If you think you have good mods, you need to make them feel free to review and police BAD mod actions.  Let them challenge all the mods to be as good as them--or stop modding.  Let them (instead of you!) select who will help them mod next.  It's fucking common sense guys, but as long as you are willing to ignore and HIDE the problem, you can keep on believing there isn't one.  Point is, the discussion forums would be 500% more valuable to anyone, if you stopped draining them constantly via these bad policies and lack of policies.

So my point is, everything on TL seems fine for the most part, until that one bad mod action happens to you or someone you know--and then you see how little recourse there is, how ridiculous and insulting the whole process is.  Sure not every person will have it happen to them, but out of those who get into any decent discussion, it's just a matter of time for them, before TL drives them out.  Don't just think of perm bans, but also IP bans which you can't see, bans that predate the ban thread, temp bans that made people quit, and just warnings, topic closings, bans of others, PM's, and posts that made people stop coming--and also when people stop coming because the discussions just seem so dead for months at a time--thanks to the way the moderators do their job.